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once he exercises his miranda warning, though -- once he exercises his miranda rights he has the choice to stop answering questions. but what the justice department says is, most people in these cases, surprisingly enough, continue to talk anyway. but if he says i'm not going to talk, then they have to stop the questioning. >> hmm. it's interesting, i know that you heard the coverage with his uncle speaking to him, saying give up, ask for forgiveness. pete, i think -- are you still hearing me, pete? nope. >> oh, there i hear you now. sorry. i hear you now. >> oh, you can hear me now. little bit of technical difficulty. but it's the kind of thing that asking for forgiveness. i guess i ask from a broader justice perspective. if he does cooperate, despite the heinous nature of the activities that he will, in all likelihood be accused of, murder, the mayhem, the terrorism in the bombing of the boston marathon, is there anything for him to be gained from a legal perspective by cooperation? >> well, he avoids the death penalty. which -- well although in the federal case, i'm not sure about th
once he exercises his miranda warning, though -- once he exercises his miranda rights he has the choice to stop answering questions. but what the justice department says is, most people in these cases, surprisingly enough, continue to talk anyway. but if he says i'm not going to talk, then they have to stop the questioning. >> hmm. it's interesting, i know that you heard the coverage with his uncle speaking to him, saying give up, ask for forgiveness. pete, i think -- are you still...
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Apr 20, 2013
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it's called the public safety exception to the miranda rule. normally you have to tell someone they have a right to remain silent and if you don't, then you can't use anything they tell you in court. so that's why the miranda warning is given. but there is an exception. you don't have to do it if there's a possible threat to public safety. and here obviously there's a concern about whether there are potential accomplices. investigators say they haven't found any. or other explosives. they say they haven't found any of those either but that's what they want to ask him. and this exception probably begins to expire the moment you invoke it so it's probably no good for more than a day or two but nonetheless they can do that. afterwards they'll have to give him his miranda warning and say whether he'll continue to answer questions. the justice department says even in very serious cases like this, most people in custody do continue to talk. >> pete, who's going to be interrogating this guy? >> well, during this period of the public safety exemption,
it's called the public safety exception to the miranda rule. normally you have to tell someone they have a right to remain silent and if you don't, then you can't use anything they tell you in court. so that's why the miranda warning is given. but there is an exception. you don't have to do it if there's a possible threat to public safety. and here obviously there's a concern about whether there are potential accomplices. investigators say they haven't found any. or other explosives. they say...
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Apr 21, 2013
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mirandaizeing someone per tains to a custodial investigation. if you're going to be using confessions and admissions in that interrogation, subsequently in a court trial, in this instance they probably have a pretty good case. they've made a decision that the public safety now mandates trying to do everything they can to get him to talk to them. now the entire case also will swing towards motivation. what did these people do this for? why did he they do this? what we found as we started looking more into serial bombers and serial killers is that serial bombers are really idealogues. they don't do it for personal gain or not notoriety. they do it for the ideology. >> the cause. quick question. only 15 second. what are the chances that he talks? it seems that the older brother may have been the one that began on this path. what are the chab chances that y actually get this suspect to talk, assuming he lives? >> he may very well talk. theoreric rudolph didn't talk t, but saddam hussein talked to us eventually. this man may very well talk to us. whe
mirandaizeing someone per tains to a custodial investigation. if you're going to be using confessions and admissions in that interrogation, subsequently in a court trial, in this instance they probably have a pretty good case. they've made a decision that the public safety now mandates trying to do everything they can to get him to talk to them. now the entire case also will swing towards motivation. what did these people do this for? why did he they do this? what we found as we started looking...
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there are exceptions to the miranda warning? >> there are exceptions to the miranda warnings. since the miranda case in 1966, the supreme court carved out a number of different exceptions where the police don't need to read the miranda warnings to a suspect and can still introduce in the statements that the suspects make into evidence. >>brian: do you believe this information warrants that exception? >> i do not. i think the government is taking a chance by deciding to go ahead and interview the suspect, future defendant without reading his miranda rights. the exception that they are citing is the public safety exception from a 1984 case, where a suspect was arrested after putting a loaded gun somewhere that supermarket. as the police were driving away, they asked him what he did with the gun, and he told them where it was. the police were able to recover a loaded gun. but in that case the danger to the public was immediate. here, i think we're talking about potentially interviewing this guy, the younger brother, when he wakes up in the hospital after the police have been sati
there are exceptions to the miranda warning? >> there are exceptions to the miranda warnings. since the miranda case in 1966, the supreme court carved out a number of different exceptions where the police don't need to read the miranda warnings to a suspect and can still introduce in the statements that the suspects make into evidence. >>brian: do you believe this information warrants that exception? >> i do not. i think the government is taking a chance by deciding to go...
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an obama administration official telling nbc news tsarnaev will not be given a miranda warning when he's physically able to be interrogated after receiving medical treatment. instead, the official says the government will invoke a legal rule known as the public safety exception. that will allow investigators to question tsarnaev without first advising him of his right to remain silent and be afforded legal counsel. president obama used his weekly address today to praise law enforcement and those involved in tracking tsarnaev down. >> americans refused to be terrorized. ultimately, that's what we'll remember from this week. that's what will remain, the stories of heroism and kindness, resolve and resilience, generosity, and love. >> authorities caught up with the suspect after a tip from a watertown resident. he was hiding in a boat parked outside a home. he is now in a boston hospital and nbc's ron allen is joining me from there. ron, with a good afternoon to you, let's get the very latest on his condition. are you getting word from the hospital or are they staying somewhat silent on tha
an obama administration official telling nbc news tsarnaev will not be given a miranda warning when he's physically able to be interrogated after receiving medical treatment. instead, the official says the government will invoke a legal rule known as the public safety exception. that will allow investigators to question tsarnaev without first advising him of his right to remain silent and be afforded legal counsel. president obama used his weekly address today to praise law enforcement and...
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tsarnaev was read his miranda rights in a brief bedside session in the intensive care unit at boston's beth israel hospital. the appearance began when a magistrate judge asked a doctor whether he was alert saying you can rouse him. according to a transcript of the appearance, tsarnaev nodded for times to questions but spoke just one word. when asked can you afford a lawyer, he answered simply -- no. the government says it has photographic evidence placing tsarnaev and his brother at the scene of the bombings as well as physical evidence tying them to the attacks. in the complaint the fbi says that at 2:38 p.m. on the day of the bombings, 11 minutes before the first bomb went off, a surveillance camera shows dzhokhar and tamerlan tsarnaev walking toward the boston marathon finish line with backpacks. then a surveillance camera mounted on the restaurant nearby captures crucial pieces of evidence. seven minutes before the first bombing the video which still hasn't been released shows dzhokhar walking toward the second bombing site. three minutes later he works his way into the crowd and t
tsarnaev was read his miranda rights in a brief bedside session in the intensive care unit at boston's beth israel hospital. the appearance began when a magistrate judge asked a doctor whether he was alert saying you can rouse him. according to a transcript of the appearance, tsarnaev nodded for times to questions but spoke just one word. when asked can you afford a lawyer, he answered simply -- no. the government says it has photographic evidence placing tsarnaev and his brother at the scene...
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there's too much misinformation about miranda. we're looking at it based on television programs tv series. if there's a miranda violation, that means that that statement that individual made can't be used in a court of law against him. however, this individual -- julian is right, the fbi is gathering that -- they already said they took full responsibility to it to the person whose car they carjacked. all they mean is statements you get are admissible. it's an affirmative defense on an evidentiary point. >> so your point is, just so i can clarify, your point is, we can still very likely put this guy in jail, or get the death penalty, whatever we decide. we may not need any of these statements against him in court. why not interrogate him for public safety reasons longs as long as we want? >> jay is right. the guy confessed in the carjacking. the terror suspect confessed to being the boston bomber. tim think mcveigh was mirandized. there isn't a problem here, which is why i'm surprised that senator graham, senator mccain and others
there's too much misinformation about miranda. we're looking at it based on television programs tv series. if there's a miranda violation, that means that that statement that individual made can't be used in a court of law against him. however, this individual -- julian is right, the fbi is gathering that -- they already said they took full responsibility to it to the person whose car they carjacked. all they mean is statements you get are admissible. it's an affirmative defense on an...
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Apr 21, 2013
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that's issue of the miranda rights. to give you a better understanding on that, that's whether or not they should invoke this public safety exception that they are in the process of doing. but it doesn't help you very much if he can't communicate. while we'll make sure that this doesn't change the circumstances, it is expected that he would be mirandized as early as tomorrow. >> and then that would go into civilian court. okay. peter alexander at the white house. thank you very much for ironing all that out for us. >>> the legal questions over whether dzhokhar tsarnaev be tried as an enemy combatant, we'll take it further after the break. are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule. the first technology of its kind... mom and dad, i have great news. is now providing answers families need. siemens. answers. it shows. we don't run like that. we build john deere equipment the way we always have: the right way. times change. our principles don't. you don't just have our word on it. yo
that's issue of the miranda rights. to give you a better understanding on that, that's whether or not they should invoke this public safety exception that they are in the process of doing. but it doesn't help you very much if he can't communicate. while we'll make sure that this doesn't change the circumstances, it is expected that he would be mirandized as early as tomorrow. >> and then that would go into civilian court. okay. peter alexander at the white house. thank you very much for...
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people thought he should have been not given a miranda warning. it turned out he was questioned for a time and then given his miranda warning and the police said he kept talking. they used it as a textbook example. this will remain a controversial decision. it is the stated policy of the obama administration to take anyone like this who creates a crime in the united states and treat them in the regular civilian justice system. they will take him away. when the appropriate time comes, begin to question him. >> pete, i got an e-mail using a term of art in law enforcement. somebody said, remember, this is a federal show. >> meaning the fbi is in charge. we have already heard some members of the senate say this person should be declared an enemy combatant, not given miranda warning and should be subject to a military-style interrogation. the obama administration will never go for that. they believe suspects who commit crimes here should be treated in the criminal justice system. that's what they will intend to do. >> michael leiter who was, among othe
people thought he should have been not given a miranda warning. it turned out he was questioned for a time and then given his miranda warning and the police said he kept talking. they used it as a textbook example. this will remain a controversial decision. it is the stated policy of the obama administration to take anyone like this who creates a crime in the united states and treat them in the regular civilian justice system. they will take him away. when the appropriate time comes, begin to...
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. >> while the obama administration has agreed to delay a reading of his miranda rights under a public safety exemption, secretary of defense chuck hagel has not seen evidence to link the bombings to terror groups. scrutiny turns to the fbi who reportedly questioned the older brother tamerlan in 2011 at the request of a foreign government. this is so interesting. of russia. the fbi told the a.p. despite interviewing him and relatives they did not find any activity. the agency dropped the ball. richard, i wonder if there is going to be a lot of questions and maybe even hearings out of this or what comes to mind just knowing those basic facts? >> there probably will be hearings of the fbi whether it learned more or could have done more. critics say that is monday morning quarterbacking. it ought to be about what we were talking about, what can we do to prevent or identify young people who are radicalized and how did we respond and how what did we learn about lockdowns. as the military would say it ought not to just focus on fbi. it's much bigger and much broader. we have to learn a lot f
. >> while the obama administration has agreed to delay a reading of his miranda rights under a public safety exemption, secretary of defense chuck hagel has not seen evidence to link the bombings to terror groups. scrutiny turns to the fbi who reportedly questioned the older brother tamerlan in 2011 at the request of a foreign government. this is so interesting. of russia. the fbi told the a.p. despite interviewing him and relatives they did not find any activity. the agency dropped the...
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. >> there's been a lot of attention paid to the fact miranda rights were not immediately read to him. governor patrick said in the opening, said last night, the suspect is not in condition to talk at this moment. is there any indication how long they can go before having to read miranda rights to him if they are going to get the chance to interrogate him without the warning, without access to a lawyer? >> reporter: a very good question. one that i think is likely to be litigated. now what the justice department is saying that they want to use this special high-value interrogation team to question him without reading him his miranda rights, under the public safety exception. and the -- question and that has been defined as 48 hours. they have 48 hours to question him before they read him his rights. now, the aclu and the federal public defenders office here in boston which says -- said yesterday they expect to represent tsarnaev. they are challenging that and saying that they -- the government may be stretching it here. and, frankly, actually, the longer this goes on, the longer that
. >> there's been a lot of attention paid to the fact miranda rights were not immediately read to him. governor patrick said in the opening, said last night, the suspect is not in condition to talk at this moment. is there any indication how long they can go before having to read miranda rights to him if they are going to get the chance to interrogate him without the warning, without access to a lawyer? >> reporter: a very good question. one that i think is likely to be litigated....
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not just miranda. it's miranda, it's the engagement of lawyers and it's an entirely different scenario. do you think we will have trouble prosecuting this guy? >> of course not. we don't need his confession. >> why didn't we wait? >> wait, wait. >> that would have been completely lawless. don't blame the justice department -- >> wait, you just said it was an act of terror. >> of course. >> and a crime. >> and you can still prosecute later, but in the meantime before you offer miranda rights, get some of america's best interrogators in there and you find out what this guy knows. is he connected to a larger cell? are there pending attacks? are there foreign links? where did the training come from? how did you learn to make the bombs? basic simple questions this we need to know because the safety and security of the american people in this case i think are paramount. >> sean, do you know who gave him his miranda rights? >> i don't know exactly who but we were told he was. >> a federal judge, a magistrate
not just miranda. it's miranda, it's the engagement of lawyers and it's an entirely different scenario. do you think we will have trouble prosecuting this guy? >> of course not. we don't need his confession. >> why didn't we wait? >> wait, wait. >> that would have been completely lawless. don't blame the justice department -- >> wait, you just said it was an act of terror. >> of course. >> and a crime. >> and you can still prosecute later, but in...
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they won't give him his miranda warning about his right to remain silent. they will simply use a federal law, a rule, that says when there's an issue of public safety, they can use an exception to the miranda rule that allows them to find out if there's any imminent threats, any additional accomplices, any other plots, any other explosives out there. but that only lasts, say, maybe two days and then they'll have to give him his miranda warning. and the justice department says often even in cases like this people continue to talk anyway. >> even though he wasn't mirandized and that was a question that was asked last night at the briefing -- >> right. >> -- right after he was taken into custody, he doesn't lose his rights, right? >> well, he has -- that's right. i mean, he doesn't have to say -- he can't be compelled to talk. if he refuses -- if he just sits there and doesn't answer any questions, they can't make him answer the questions. but the one right that is sort of suspended is, normally speaking if the police ask -- if you're in custody and the police
they won't give him his miranda warning about his right to remain silent. they will simply use a federal law, a rule, that says when there's an issue of public safety, they can use an exception to the miranda rule that allows them to find out if there's any imminent threats, any additional accomplices, any other plots, any other explosives out there. but that only lasts, say, maybe two days and then they'll have to give him his miranda warning. and the justice department says often even in...
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for least 48 hours before miranda rights we given to him. lou: he was also under heavy sedation. i am not sure we can call that interrogation. >> we really don't know. if you recall there was not much said after he was arrested and nobody released information on his medical status at that particular point*. lou: we do know for a fact he had multiple gunshot unds and was near bleeding out as the expression goes. he was in very bad shape. but now let's turn to chicago. we have a situation since a 1978, a chicago police arresting shimmy my nails, 390 times since 1978. 83 alias common 92 theft. 65 disorderly conduct. what in the world is going on? >> accommodation, i don't know but it's a combination of a failure in the government, a failure of the jail system and a mental health problem. when you combine all three of those issues together this is what happens. this is not your typical situation. this is so extraordinary. when you have the problems this woman had with the overcrowding in the illinois state prison system. >> get has to cost a fortune. >> and you see the revolving door
for least 48 hours before miranda rights we given to him. lou: he was also under heavy sedation. i am not sure we can call that interrogation. >> we really don't know. if you recall there was not much said after he was arrested and nobody released information on his medical status at that particular point*. lou: we do know for a fact he had multiple gunshot unds and was near bleeding out as the expression goes. he was in very bad shape. but now let's turn to chicago. we have a situation...
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after an initial appearance before a federal magistrate from his hospital bed, where he was read his miranda rights, the 19-year-old charged with one count of using and conspiring to use a weapons of mass destruction of resulting in death. and one count of malicious different stru-- ofproperty, tha maximum penalty of death, federal complain reveals that the tsarnaev brothers were residing in the nation legally, dzhokhar's older brother, tamerlan who was killed friday morning was a lawful permanent resident, one of the two told a carjacking victim thursday night they were the boston marathon bombers, a search of dzhokhar's umass dartmouth dorm room turned up a hat and jacket corne jack y suspect number 2. tsarnaev remains hospitalized at beth israel hospital with gunshot wounds to his head, neck, legs and hands, authorities believe one was sev-inflicted in -- self-inflectioned in a botched suicide attempt. >> canadian authorities announcing in connection with fbi they have broken up a terrorist plot to blow up a passenger train and bridge somewhere between toronto and u.s. border. a ballot th
after an initial appearance before a federal magistrate from his hospital bed, where he was read his miranda rights, the 19-year-old charged with one count of using and conspiring to use a weapons of mass destruction of resulting in death. and one count of malicious different stru-- ofproperty, tha maximum penalty of death, federal complain reveals that the tsarnaev brothers were residing in the nation legally, dzhokhar's older brother, tamerlan who was killed friday morning was a lawful...
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the miranda warning says you amendment right. if the information you provide, information this may save lives prevent terrorist acts in the future, can't be used not in you, you are danger of self-incrimination. used it would is still be habeas corpus right. so what we are saying and what he is saying and i think it is rong there is no such thing as global jihadist movement. i think the evidence of that is we will treat d somebody who commits an act of brutal terrorism as a criminal them to lawyer up and say don't say a word, information,hem any we will deal later and i think i think this is illful blindness and reckless in regard to the people who may foruture.ctims in the guest: responding to the caller, i think what you are saying is i hear it t because from other people in the military. a purpose. war have if we unlawfully seek to expand that purpose we harm only armed forces, ur who are legitimately carrying in limited nflict particular areas in afghanistan. and the constitutional right would have been violated here had we h
the miranda warning says you amendment right. if the information you provide, information this may save lives prevent terrorist acts in the future, can't be used not in you, you are danger of self-incrimination. used it would is still be habeas corpus right. so what we are saying and what he is saying and i think it is rong there is no such thing as global jihadist movement. i think the evidence of that is we will treat d somebody who commits an act of brutal terrorism as a criminal them to...
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. >> i think the miranda issue is an easier issue. he doesn't have to be mar lindaized for a lot of reason. first of all, they have enough evidence to convict him without getting a confession from him. all miranda gets you is a confession you can use in court. you can use that information for everything else. remember, he confessed already to the guy they kidnapped. the guy he kidnapped says, these two guys told us, we did the bombing. they got great witness and they got a great confession. maybe even better than a law enforcement confession where you can claim it was forced out of you. they gave a upon takenious confession -- spontaneous confession. >> bob wants to get in here. so then why did they need to make that statement? i'm trying to figure out why they made that statement? >> i don't know exactly why they made it. maybe because they got so much criticism -- remember the christmas morning bomber that they mirandaized right away, lost the opportunity to get information from him? so i think maybe they were playing defense. >> le
. >> i think the miranda issue is an easier issue. he doesn't have to be mar lindaized for a lot of reason. first of all, they have enough evidence to convict him without getting a confession from him. all miranda gets you is a confession you can use in court. you can use that information for everything else. remember, he confessed already to the guy they kidnapped. the guy he kidnapped says, these two guys told us, we did the bombing. they got great witness and they got a great...
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recovering from gunshot wounds and as investigators continue to swear gate him, a judge gave him his miranda right and now lawmakers fear this legal action unknowingly took the death center off the table. listen to what senators had to say on the senate floor earlier today. >> how do you get the death penalty when the only way you can get information out of the suspect is to go through his lawyer? you can't have this national security interrogation where there's no lawyer to get information to protect against a future tact tick that can't be used in the trial. don't you think the lawyer is going to say i'm not going to have my client talk to you unless you promise not to seek the death penalty? >> i would say that the senator from south carolina, i don't know how that was 'nibble this case. any defense lawyer, as they should to defend their client, there's no way they oill allow that individual who committed the terrorist attack in boston to speak to one investigator now if we get additional information, we have follow-up questions, without taking the death penalty off the table. >> so did t
recovering from gunshot wounds and as investigators continue to swear gate him, a judge gave him his miranda right and now lawmakers fear this legal action unknowingly took the death center off the table. listen to what senators had to say on the senate floor earlier today. >> how do you get the death penalty when the only way you can get information out of the suspect is to go through his lawyer? you can't have this national security interrogation where there's no lawyer to get...
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jon: to that end are you okay with him not being read his miranda rights? >> i am. at this point i think it's perfectly time. jenna: the 19-year-old suspect was captured friday night in watertown found hiding in a boat parked in the backyard moments after police said the trail had gone cold. molly line is live outside the hospital in boston. what do we actually know about the suspect's condition today? >> well, dzhokhar tsarnaev is still inside the hospital under heavy guard, in serious condition but table stable ae stable according to local sources here. we are expected to hear from the u.s. attorney's office possibly as early as today on charges. there are varying reports about his ability to communicate. some have said he's been able to write things down, that is not confirmed through official fbi sources or the hospital staff on hand. we know from a high-ranking lawmaker that dzhokhar suffered a gunshot wound 0 to his throat, and they are not saying at this time whether it was self-inflicted. he had a considerable blood loss in the community of watertown during
jon: to that end are you okay with him not being read his miranda rights? >> i am. at this point i think it's perfectly time. jenna: the 19-year-old suspect was captured friday night in watertown found hiding in a boat parked in the backyard moments after police said the trail had gone cold. molly line is live outside the hospital in boston. what do we actually know about the suspect's condition today? >> well, dzhokhar tsarnaev is still inside the hospital under heavy guard, in...
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the united states attorney's office advised us not to administer miranda rights. we gave that information out to our officers and i think all law enforcement was operating under those rules of engagement. >> back to the apartment real quickly. there were devices found in the apartment but you can't comment on what? >> no, i didn't say that. i can't comment on any evidence that was found there. sglp anything that was found in the apartment. are you confident that these two were acting alone and that there are no more suspects out there? >> i'm confident that they were the two major actors in the violence that occurred. i am very, very sure that during this thorough investigation we'll get to the bottom of the whole plot. that's all i can say right now. i told the people of boston that they can rest easily. the two people who were committing these vicious attacks are either dead or in custody. we cleared dozens of packages that had been dropped by people fleeing the scene. so everything was treated suspiciously. in a situation like this, bombers often target first r
the united states attorney's office advised us not to administer miranda rights. we gave that information out to our officers and i think all law enforcement was operating under those rules of engagement. >> back to the apartment real quickly. there were devices found in the apartment but you can't comment on what? >> no, i didn't say that. i can't comment on any evidence that was found there. sglp anything that was found in the apartment. are you confident that these two were...
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courts for that purpose. >> so you just mentioned miranda. so the other thing, the big thing that happened today there are two remarkable events today. there was the filing of the criminal complaint, which i was waving around, and they released a suspect of a procedural hearing that happened actually at the bedside in the hospital with a federal magistrate who was brought in. that federal magistrate informed dzhokhar tsarnaev, the 19-year-old suspect, of his rights to counsel, and there was actually defense counsel present. my question to you is he was apprehended friday night. he has been in and out of consciousness as far as we can tell. he has a throat wound, so he is writing things down. the administration has made use of a public safety exception in not reading him his rights. and i want to read from a memo in 2010 that went out to the fbi from the justice department that says there may be exceptional cases in which although all relevant public safety questions have been asked, are there other plots, other bombs, et cetera, agents noneth
courts for that purpose. >> so you just mentioned miranda. so the other thing, the big thing that happened today there are two remarkable events today. there was the filing of the criminal complaint, which i was waving around, and they released a suspect of a procedural hearing that happened actually at the bedside in the hospital with a federal magistrate who was brought in. that federal magistrate informed dzhokhar tsarnaev, the 19-year-old suspect, of his rights to counsel, and there...
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government has not yet red dzhokhar tsarnaev his miranda rights. we'll discuss when the aclu's mike german joins us just ahead. i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks. so i'm doing fine... but she's still going to give me a heart attack. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. and "up to 75% lower copays." as a preferred pharmacy, walgreens can save you as much as 75% compared to other select pharmacies. walgreens, at the corner of happy and healthy. >>> when ruslan tsarni held court with the media on friday, he tried to give a snapshot of his nephews' lives, he also defended his heritage, as well as his newfound homeland. >> i respect this country, i love this country. this country, which gives chance to e
government has not yet red dzhokhar tsarnaev his miranda rights. we'll discuss when the aclu's mike german joins us just ahead. i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks. so i'm doing fine... but she's still going to give me a heart...
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jenna: please. >> i don't have a problem with miranda rights. this man can only be tried in federal court. he's never eligible for military commissions. a first year law student could convict this person. what i'm worried about is what does he know about future attacks? he's telling us that his brother was the bad guy, he's sort of just along for the ride. they had no international connections. guess what, he's down-playing his involvement. what i am suggesting is that we use the national security legal system where we can interview him without a lawyer to gather intelligence to prevent a future attack, rather than having to negotiate through his lawyer to get any information. jenna: but, if i could, senator, there seems to be a lot of discrepancy about some of the information come being out about this investigation. >> right. jenna: we've all seen it, you know, played out on the news and otherwise. i would like to drill down a little bit into an even change you just had about the boston terror attacks with the s*epbg o secretary of home land se
jenna: please. >> i don't have a problem with miranda rights. this man can only be tried in federal court. he's never eligible for military commissions. a first year law student could convict this person. what i'm worried about is what does he know about future attacks? he's telling us that his brother was the bad guy, he's sort of just along for the ride. they had no international connections. guess what, he's down-playing his involvement. what i am suggesting is that we use the national...
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do we think, your personal opinion, do we think that he should have been read his miranda rights? >> i think that he has got that brief window of time. i heard the segment you did with mike ignacious on that and that period of time where if public safety issues arise, allows them to ask questions. i think it appears from what i know, i don't know anything, none of us do right now, that we are in that window, there is a concern for public safety and probably able to question him and i just hope they don't go over that line. they have to make sure that they stay in that line you you want any prosecution to hold up. you want this person to be held accountable. >> what about treating him as an enemy combatant? what is your take on that? >> i don't know all the facts here to establish that yet. i'm not sure that most of us that aren't intimately involved with the investigation know all the niceties involved in making that determination. i would hesitate to make a leap to that point without having quite a bit more information. >> massachusetts congressman john tierney. congressman, than
do we think, your personal opinion, do we think that he should have been read his miranda rights? >> i think that he has got that brief window of time. i heard the segment you did with mike ignacious on that and that period of time where if public safety issues arise, allows them to ask questions. i think it appears from what i know, i don't know anything, none of us do right now, that we are in that window, there is a concern for public safety and probably able to question him and i just...
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miranda or not but it sounds like this was premiranda by the magistrate. eric, thank you. >> all right. >> and more controversy surfacing tonight over tamerlan tsarnaev's 2010 trip to russia. how much did homeland know? here's what january -- janet napolitano said today. >> the system pinged when he was leaving the united states. by the time he returned all investigations -- the matter had been closed. >> but senator lindsey graham said the fbi claimed to know nothing, yes, nothing about the trip and tonight the fbi and homeland security briefing lawmakers. congressman jason chase is on the house homeland security committee. he joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> thanks, greta. >> can you clarify or do you know whether or not he mentioned going out of the united states? there's some confusion over what senator lindsay graham said and what the secretary said. >> i don't know what the secretary means when she said ping. what is clear to me from my past experience, the united states of america has no viable entry-exit system. we aren't able to track people as
miranda or not but it sounds like this was premiranda by the magistrate. eric, thank you. >> all right. >> and more controversy surfacing tonight over tamerlan tsarnaev's 2010 trip to russia. how much did homeland know? here's what january -- janet napolitano said today. >> the system pinged when he was leaving the united states. by the time he returned all investigations -- the matter had been closed. >> but senator lindsey graham said the fbi claimed to know nothing,...
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was one of four republican lawmakers that released a statement yesterday applauding the suspension of miranda rights for the teenage suspect. he even suggested we haven't gone far enough. and advocated for labeling the suspect an enemy combatant. by defining this week's events as terrorism, we endow the violence with political meaning. when we call their homemade bombs but not adam lanza's bush master xm 15 rifle weapons of mass destruction, we sent out a trajectory for the prosecution when we focus on months that one suspect spent overseas rather than the years that both spent in the u.s. we assume a limited geography for the incubation of evil. so here we go. the crisis is over and the politics begin. folks, this is actually the most dangerous part. with me at the table today is msnbc contributor and georgetown university professor, michael eric dyson. valerie core, a writer and fi filmmak filmmaker. co-host of the cycle and robert pape, director of the project security and -- >> bb, let me start with you. what do you think happened this week? >> what i think happened is we had homegrown te
was one of four republican lawmakers that released a statement yesterday applauding the suspension of miranda rights for the teenage suspect. he even suggested we haven't gone far enough. and advocated for labeling the suspect an enemy combatant. by defining this week's events as terrorism, we endow the violence with political meaning. when we call their homemade bombs but not adam lanza's bush master xm 15 rifle weapons of mass destruction, we sent out a trajectory for the prosecution when we...
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all of this is moot right now, because as you know, yesterday, he was formally given his miranda rights and a judge magistrate at his bed side with a court-appointed attorney, a public defender. this is moot as the obama administration has made its decision. is lindsey graham on sound legal ground, saying he should be tried in a civilian court, but held and questioned as an enemy combatant? >> i think the only fair answer to that question is we don't know. because it's never been done before in american history to have some sort of hybrid combatant and criminal proceeding. we do know from jake tapper's reporting, there was an interrogation of tsavraev. and he did disclose his position that there was no broader conspiracy here. just him and his pressure. it seems like the justice department and the fbi have done the kind of interrogation that at least -- that lindsey graham seems to want to have been done, perhaps not as extensive as it might have been. but there was a premiranda interrogation and authorities can work with that, at least now going forward. >> i think that's a fair point.
all of this is moot right now, because as you know, yesterday, he was formally given his miranda rights and a judge magistrate at his bed side with a court-appointed attorney, a public defender. this is moot as the obama administration has made its decision. is lindsey graham on sound legal ground, saying he should be tried in a civilian court, but held and questioned as an enemy combatant? >> i think the only fair answer to that question is we don't know. because it's never been done...
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but one of the issues is whether or not he will be given his miranda rights. is he a u.s. citizen? and under the constitution considered innocent until proven guilty? is he an enemy combatant? >> that's one of the political arguments happening in this town right now. you end up having people from the aclu, other supporters of civil liberties in saying that people like timothy mcvay who was a domestic terrorist was read miranda rights and the same thing should happen to the brothers. on the other hand you do have the same two senators i just talked about on immigration legislation, john mccain and lindsey graham who said this person is a terrorist should not have miranda rights. it seems the obama administration is going to be straddling the middle ground as they did a couple years ago in that you wait some time before giving them their miranda rights to make sure there's no types of threats to the public safety before reading those rights. and that seems to be the course the obama administration will be taking. >> your network is the subject of two articles i want to bring to our a
but one of the issues is whether or not he will be given his miranda rights. is he a u.s. citizen? and under the constitution considered innocent until proven guilty? is he an enemy combatant? >> that's one of the political arguments happening in this town right now. you end up having people from the aclu, other supporters of civil liberties in saying that people like timothy mcvay who was a domestic terrorist was read miranda rights and the same thing should happen to the brothers. on...
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miranda rights read. so he may well cooperate and this may well all have a happy ending and i hope it does and i hope everything works out just fine. there is at least a chance that some information will be lost because of this and it seems to me that when you have an attack of this kind related to muslim extremism as this plainly is especially in the case of the older brother perhaps in the case of this young man as well that intelligence is critical and ought to be a priority. >> bret: yuan, we don't know what if anything he has told investigators up until he was read his miranda rights. that's what we don't know. he is clearly not speaking because of the injury. but, your thoughts? >> i was going to make the point that you made, which is that we don't know what he said before he was read his miranda rights. and it would indicate from the fact that he is nodding that maybe he wasn't able to speak. maybe, i don't know but that's my assumption based on the transcript. i will say i don't think the presiden
miranda rights read. so he may well cooperate and this may well all have a happy ending and i hope it does and i hope everything works out just fine. there is at least a chance that some information will be lost because of this and it seems to me that when you have an attack of this kind related to muslim extremism as this plainly is especially in the case of the older brother perhaps in the case of this young man as well that intelligence is critical and ought to be a priority. >> bret:...
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. >> and they'll ask him questions at first without reading him his miranda rights. when do you expect charges to be filed? >> charges could come as early today. terror charges that could bring the death penalty. he won't be read his miranda rights. they're going to use the public safety can exception. they're taking this extraordinary step because there could be an imminent threat still out there. i just got off the phone, george, with a senior law enforcement, of deep concern of ammunition, guns and working bombs these men had. they were so disciplined. >> any indication of another sleeper cell? >> right now, no evidence of a broader plot involving more people here, but law enforcement officials say they can't take that chance. the investigation is full tilt to find that out. >> okay, pierre, thanks very much. let's get more on this from our team of analysis from our team, dan abrams, brad garrett and richard clarke. dan, let me begin with you. the question about the questioning of the witness, at least at first he will not be read his miranda rights. >> that's rig
. >> and they'll ask him questions at first without reading him his miranda rights. when do you expect charges to be filed? >> charges could come as early today. terror charges that could bring the death penalty. he won't be read his miranda rights. they're going to use the public safety can exception. they're taking this extraordinary step because there could be an imminent threat still out there. i just got off the phone, george, with a senior law enforcement, of deep concern of...
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he was read his miranda rights from his hospital and he will have access to a lawyer. the 19-year-old has been described as cooperative during questioning. forced to write his answers or nod yes or no. he told officials he and his brother came up with the idea for the attacks on their own, finding internet resources to learn how to make bombs. he has been assigned three public defenders and could very well face the death penalty. a weekend search of dzhokhar's college dorm room turned up a black jacket, a white hat and similar to the one in the surveillance photos he was allegedly wearing. investigators also want to question tamerlan tsarnaev's wife. the couple initially met at a nightclub. she later converted to islam, dropped out of college and had a child with him. her attorney has said that she had no suspicions that her husband might be plotting an attack. hundreds of people stood in silence at copley square at 2:50 p.m. one week after the bombings. president obama marked the moment of silence from the white house. the u.s. senate held a similar tribute on capitol
he was read his miranda rights from his hospital and he will have access to a lawyer. the 19-year-old has been described as cooperative during questioning. forced to write his answers or nod yes or no. he told officials he and his brother came up with the idea for the attacks on their own, finding internet resources to learn how to make bombs. he has been assigned three public defenders and could very well face the death penalty. a weekend search of dzhokhar's college dorm room turned up a...
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his miranda rights were read to him. they decided to read him his miranda rights. those were given to him today as well. the security here is very tight. in fact, what is interesting is, he potentially might get out of the hospital later than many of his victims that are also here recovering. greta? >> adam, in terms what have went down before he was mirandized, was he interviewed by the fbi or anybody in the last couple of days since he was taken into custody? did he give him information that they considered valuable and helpful? >> reporter: we learned a cowl of things. 1; yes, there were questions asked of him. the first few hours if not more than that, they were worried about making sure should thguy survives. he got here on friday night in pretty bad condition. he bled from injuries nearly 20 hours. he was obviously in rough condition. so the number-1 priority was to make sure he survived to get information from him. questions were asked of him before he was mirandized. they haven't said of course, they are not going to give away what he said. i did talk to on
his miranda rights were read to him. they decided to read him his miranda rights. those were given to him today as well. the security here is very tight. in fact, what is interesting is, he potentially might get out of the hospital later than many of his victims that are also here recovering. greta? >> adam, in terms what have went down before he was mirandized, was he interviewed by the fbi or anybody in the last couple of days since he was taken into custody? did he give him information...
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don't read him his miranda rights, try him as enemy combatant. seeing this already fall on partisan lines in minutes. >> i spoke with susan collins, a republican senator. >> barely. >> even before the suspect -- >> you're not unhappy about that. >> -- had been captured, she said if this person is in some way an american citizen, i do not believe they should be treated as enemy combatant. >> absolutely. when i said it falls on partisan lines, you'll probably see the rand pauls, the far right come around and defend his rights and vice versa, but this is something that we saw fought over time and time again when george bush was president. ironically, three republican senators or at least the two, mccain and graham were defending the liberal point of view saying don't torture. >> the argument, should the suspect be treated as part of al qaeda and taliban basically. it was authorization for use of force. the question is does it even apply? >> right. >> and will it matter. and then the other question you're going to get to is if we had been warned by t
don't read him his miranda rights, try him as enemy combatant. seeing this already fall on partisan lines in minutes. >> i spoke with susan collins, a republican senator. >> barely. >> even before the suspect -- >> you're not unhappy about that. >> -- had been captured, she said if this person is in some way an american citizen, i do not believe they should be treated as enemy combatant. >> absolutely. when i said it falls on partisan lines, you'll probably...
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no miranda rights were read to the suspect here last night. a justice department official says the bombing suspect won't be read the miranda rights because of a public saflt exception. so what is the next judicial step? let's ask the executive director of the american center for law and justice. good morning. i think a lot of folks are not familiar with this public safety exemption. why invoke that at this time? >> usually it's rare, it would be an instance where there is a gun or some kind of in this situation, unexploded bombs. it's important for people to understand, this is not the most extreme move. what you get from this is very limited interrogation and on top of that, it has to be directed questions. what does that mean? the questions can only go to minimizing and eliminating the immediate emergency. because that's why you've invoked this exception to the miranda warning which is required by supreme court precedent. but they did carve this out. >> the u.s. government is concerned about any potential new attacks so they want to limit th
no miranda rights were read to the suspect here last night. a justice department official says the bombing suspect won't be read the miranda rights because of a public saflt exception. so what is the next judicial step? let's ask the executive director of the american center for law and justice. good morning. i think a lot of folks are not familiar with this public safety exemption. why invoke that at this time? >> usually it's rare, it would be an instance where there is a gun or some...
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i am informed, joe, that miranda was -- the suspect was mirandized today. i don't know exactly what that means. it doesn't sound like they will have enough elbow room to ask questions. what is your take? >> what happens was there was resentment in the hospital today where a u.s. magistrate average, prosecutor and a public defender were in attendance, in explaining the charges to the defendant, he was told he had the right to remain silent, that an attorney would be provided for him and he was asked if he understood those things. he did. he was told he did not have to make any statements. so the so-called period in which they were going to glean all of this intelligence from him has ended. if he chooses to speak, it will, no doubt, be over the objection of his public defender and now that he's lawyered up, my guess is that the talking is over. >> was this a mistake in i mean, a lot of people calling for enemy combatant status. that would have given a lot more time for questioning. he can be brought back into the federal system. at least he'd have a period wh
i am informed, joe, that miranda was -- the suspect was mirandized today. i don't know exactly what that means. it doesn't sound like they will have enough elbow room to ask questions. what is your take? >> what happens was there was resentment in the hospital today where a u.s. magistrate average, prosecutor and a public defender were in attendance, in explaining the charges to the defendant, he was told he had the right to remain silent, that an attorney would be provided for him and he...
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i think the discussion about miranda is sue superfluous. some say it deter arrives from the fifth amendment and not from the warning and given the prevalence of it i don't think there's a person who doesn't know they have a right to remain silent. to think just because this young man was very intelligent and educated didn't know he had the right to remain silent because he was not given the miranda is silly. the fundamental issue is the paradigm in which we treat people in this instance facts as the attorney from the aclu point outs and i have to point out i'm not a huge fan of the aclu but i have to agree. we have an american citizen on american soil and to strip him of constitutional rights is preposterous. the supreme court has spoken to this after the civil war and they ruled that when the courts were open the right of habeas corpus couldn't be suspended. i'm a soldier and when you misuse the laws of war you endanger people like me on the battlefield. there are instances when terrorists are enemy combatants. this is not one of them. gue
i think the discussion about miranda is sue superfluous. some say it deter arrives from the fifth amendment and not from the warning and given the prevalence of it i don't think there's a person who doesn't know they have a right to remain silent. to think just because this young man was very intelligent and educated didn't know he had the right to remain silent because he was not given the miranda is silly. the fundamental issue is the paradigm in which we treat people in this instance facts...
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he wasn't read his miranda rights. they are using an exception there and there are calls for him to be treated as an enemy combatant. is that the right call, do you think? >> let's pick these two piece it is apart. on the miranda question it's not clear how much of an exception it really is. as an investigator or prosecutor you can choose not to mirandize someone. it makes things much more difficult for them down the road at trial. if you are concerned about getting certain kinds of information and it looks like the fbi and the national security apparatus is concerned about getting information, then you would want to get as much as you can out of someone in the near term in order to roll up any other individuals that might have been involved in a potential conspiracy. turning to the question on whether someone is an enemy combatant or not, if you apply law in 1944 when we were dealing with germans in the united states, maybe you could classify him as an enemy combatant. in the last 20 or 30 years, every major act of do
he wasn't read his miranda rights. they are using an exception there and there are calls for him to be treated as an enemy combatant. is that the right call, do you think? >> let's pick these two piece it is apart. on the miranda question it's not clear how much of an exception it really is. as an investigator or prosecutor you can choose not to mirandize someone. it makes things much more difficult for them down the road at trial. if you are concerned about getting certain kinds of...
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and his miranda rights were read to him. there was reporting if they weren't going to, but they decided to read him his miranda rights and those were given to him today as well. the security here is still very tight. what is interesting is he potentially might get out of the hospital later than many of his victims that are here also recovering. greta. >> adam, in terms of what went down before he was mirandized, was he interviewed by the fbi or by anybody in the last couple days since he was taken into custody? and it he give them information that they considered valuable and helpful? >> we learned a couple of things. yes, there were questions asked of him. the first few hours, if not more than that, obvious think they were making sure he survived so you had that situation. he got here friday night in pretty bad condition. he bled for nearly 24 hours and then the fire fight at the boat. the number one priority for them was to make sure he survived so they could get information from him. questions were asked of him before he
and his miranda rights were read to him. there was reporting if they weren't going to, but they decided to read him his miranda rights and those were given to him today as well. the security here is still very tight. what is interesting is he potentially might get out of the hospital later than many of his victims that are here also recovering. greta. >> adam, in terms of what went down before he was mirandized, was he interviewed by the fbi or by anybody in the last couple days since he...
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they waved tsarnaev's miranda rights. they said he could still pose a threat either because there are more bombs planted out there or he's connected to a larger terrorist cell. either way it has some lawmakers concerned. as investigators continue to interrogate their suspect some lawmakers argue he should be treated as an enemy combatant and denied an attorney for the time being. >> we should be allowed her intelligence-gathering purposes. >> investigators say they're still uncertain whether zocor and his brother tamerlan who died in a shoot-out on friday with police have any ties to fore te union issued a statement saying we must not waver from our tried and true justice system even in the most difficult of times. denial of rights is un-american and will only make it harder to obtain fair convictions. some liberal lawmakers agree and said they would be comfortable with tsarnaev being designated as an enemy combatant. >> i don't believe. it would beunconstitutional to >> it carries its own risk especially if that suspect
they waved tsarnaev's miranda rights. they said he could still pose a threat either because there are more bombs planted out there or he's connected to a larger terrorist cell. either way it has some lawmakers concerned. as investigators continue to interrogate their suspect some lawmakers argue he should be treated as an enemy combatant and denied an attorney for the time being. >> we should be allowed her intelligence-gathering purposes. >> investigators say they're still...
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dzhokhar tsarnaev was charged without miranda, this is because federal authorities were able to implement the... the national threat exemption. and that will allow them to continue to question him. now, just on the other side of the police tape is a spontaneous celebration, beginning with people huddled around the radios, wanting to hear the latest information h. they got the information they wanted, cheers would erupt. ultimately, they lined both sides of the road and cheered for the emergency vehicles as they were leaving this scene. the tactical teams, the police officers, the national guardsmen, all got cheers. the crowd would erupt and chanted u-s-a! u-s-a ?ft and patriotic songs, as the people here endured so much the last couple of days, very glad to see this chapter of the trag fee tragedy is over. >> we will see you again. >> what is next here? joining us now, the criminal defense attorney, james shalloc, familiar with cases involving multiple murders. he prosecuted son of sam killer, david brcko wits. i have to think, the most powerful evidence may be the videotape, the day of t
dzhokhar tsarnaev was charged without miranda, this is because federal authorities were able to implement the... the national threat exemption. and that will allow them to continue to question him. now, just on the other side of the police tape is a spontaneous celebration, beginning with people huddled around the radios, wanting to hear the latest information h. they got the information they wanted, cheers would erupt. ultimately, they lined both sides of the road and cheered for the emergency...
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he was given his miranda rights. finally they had been put in place. they're going to question him to use that information to collect intelligence so that they protect the rest of us. >> this case seems like a prime candidate for capital punishment. do you think there will be much debate about whether or not he gets the death penalty? >> i sure hope not. he's a poster boy for if. >> how so? >> he used an explosive device. he killed people, he maimed people, he intended to do more. he rings all the bells. >> what if he gives more information about people overseas who they were in could cahoots with? >> you mean cooperates? >> yeah. is that the thing that helps you avoid the death penalty. >> it's one thing that helps you avoid the death penalty. i hope it doesn't get him anything less than life. >> we see this and it sort of reminded me of the dc sniper case in a way. maybe the younger person who was influenced by his older brother. maybe led astray in some capacity. we may uncover that the brother was really the ring leader here, the one who was drivin
he was given his miranda rights. finally they had been put in place. they're going to question him to use that information to collect intelligence so that they protect the rest of us. >> this case seems like a prime candidate for capital punishment. do you think there will be much debate about whether or not he gets the death penalty? >> i sure hope not. he's a poster boy for if. >> how so? >> he used an explosive device. he killed people, he maimed people, he intended...
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nineteen year old dzhokhar and twenty six year old to milan and of course we have to note that the miranda rights off tonight have been revoked the rights of he has to remain silent as well as the rights to a lawyer are being denied to him because officials are interested in being able to question him without being able to use this right and the fact that his miranda rights have been revoked is receiving major criticism throughout the united states and causing really a lot of debate between certain politicians and civil rights groups also it's important to mention that republican lawmakers in the united states have been suggesting that to be treated as an enemy competent this is also been a topic of much debate because we are of course talking about a u.s. citizen as we do know back in two thousand and eleven they did receive a request from a foreign government this is russia's government that said that they should look into the identity of the older brother the older suspect to milan back that he was twenty four years. old and the f.b.i. did receive recommendations that they investigate h
nineteen year old dzhokhar and twenty six year old to milan and of course we have to note that the miranda rights off tonight have been revoked the rights of he has to remain silent as well as the rights to a lawyer are being denied to him because officials are interested in being able to question him without being able to use this right and the fact that his miranda rights have been revoked is receiving major criticism throughout the united states and causing really a lot of debate between...
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osama bin laden's son and law is in federal court -- the federal system today, was read his miranda rights. he has never been designated. can you imagine what a sum of bin laden's son in law can tell us about the terrorist organization put he was the spokesman after 9/11. there is a disturbing pattern of not gathering intelligence when that opportunity exists. they care very much. i have to go. we will go next door to answer any questions that you have about the act by and we are going to observe a moment of silence for the folks in boston. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> stakeholders testified on capitol hill on the immigration bill. john mccain, chuck schumer, dick durbin, lindsey graham, robert menendez, marker rubio, jeff flake, and michael bennett are the architects of the legislation. >> about the problems with the program, and i am happy we will find a way with this improved program to make this work better. sometimes the alphabet soup of immigration programs and the endless rules can get confusing.
osama bin laden's son and law is in federal court -- the federal system today, was read his miranda rights. he has never been designated. can you imagine what a sum of bin laden's son in law can tell us about the terrorist organization put he was the spokesman after 9/11. there is a disturbing pattern of not gathering intelligence when that opportunity exists. they care very much. i have to go. we will go next door to answer any questions that you have about the act by and we are going to...
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Apr 22, 2013
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bill: are you okay with him not being read his miranda rights? >> i am. at this point i think it's perfectly fine. again i don't think it matters under what exception. you can always mirandize this individual, but the important thing is that get the information now. bill: i have not heard a lot of people disagree with that. >> think about the opposite what if they had read him the miranda rights and what if he had clammed up and what if there, god forbid been another attack that we could have seen coming if we had questioned the guy. just think of the conversation if there was a second attack that we could have prevented because we let the guy clam up. bill: this particular decision was broadened two years and and changed by executive order. that is something the president put in action in case you would have an event like this. that you could possibly have active, ongoing terror attacks or threats of terror attacks that could endanger the safety of the public. >> that's why i think he's done the right thing by not giving him the ability to be quiet. we n
bill: are you okay with him not being read his miranda rights? >> i am. at this point i think it's perfectly fine. again i don't think it matters under what exception. you can always mirandize this individual, but the important thing is that get the information now. bill: i have not heard a lot of people disagree with that. >> think about the opposite what if they had read him the miranda rights and what if he had clammed up and what if there, god forbid been another attack that we...